Why does Egypt’s identity matter so much?
I’m not saying it shouldn’t. I guess I just wonder why so many people spend so much energy trying to force Egyptians to identify as black. And at the same time why many Egyptians, Middle Easterners, Jews and others go out of their way to separate the country from the rest of Africa.
Does it even matter? Are blacks scared that we won’t have any examples of ancient greatness (which is nonsense) to point to if we can’t claim Egypt? Do non-blacks find it difficult to wrap their heads around black accomplishment in years past?
Zahi Hawass, an Egyptian antiquities expert, sparked outraged among some black Americans this week when he said King Tut was not black.
The AFP reported that Hawass told reporters, “Tutankhamun was not black, and the portrayal of ancient Egyptian civilisation as black has no element of truth to it.”
He also said, “Egyptians are not Arabs and are not Africans despite the fact that Egypt is in Africa.”
Supposedly blacks demonstrated outside a Hawass lecture earlier this month in Philadelphia demanding that King Tut’s blackness be acknowledged.
The “Tutankhamun and the Golden Age of the Pharaohs” traveling exhibit currently on display in Philly supposedly features images of Tut with light skin. And blacks have protested the exhibit at other stops.
Does it matter to you how Egyptians self-identify? Or how others identify them? Why?
Eugene is a journalist in Phoenix. Check out some of his lighter guest contributions at Intelligent Ignorance.
Eye Kid
Ah no, Egyptians are not black. The fact that they are in Africa has little bearing on their race. There are millions of non-black Africans. That’s one reason why I, personally, struggle with Jesus being black. His earthly parents weren’t black, heck they weren’t even African. The best you can say about Jesus was that he was bronze… and probably had a mean jump shot.
September 26, 2007 at 9:07 pm
Brandon
I don’t mind the debate on whether Egyptians were dark Africans or light Africans but just acknowledge that Egypt is an African country. It just seems like folks go out of their way to separate Egypt as if being an African nation discredits it from doing great, awe-inspiring things. It’s like saying the United States is not part of N. America.
September 26, 2007 at 11:46 pm
Kali
In my opinion, it is undeniable that Egyptians are African. Despite what Hawass says, I’m willing to stand my ground on the premise that Egypt being in Africa makes Egyptians African. (I’ll bet a tank of gas on that one.) However, the author was correct in implying that nationality and race are two entirely different things. Nationality is determined by one’s country of origin, and remains the same no matter where they go. Race, however, is a concept that is very tightly interwoven with the culture of a region/country; therefore it changes with location. In Africa, it wouldn’t surprise me if Egyptians are not considered Black. At most, they might be perceived as colored in South Africa, but it seems to me that many would pass on giving Egyptians a racial category altogether, preferring to classify them by their self-identified ethnicity, Arab. In America, race is different. The fact that Egypt is located at the cross section of of regions inhabited by peoples of almost every race means that there is most likely some Black African blood in their gumbo-esque heritage. Since many Americans still classify race according to the “one-drop” rule, Egyptians in America could be classified as black. Even the most liberal American race rules would categorize them as bi-racial (i.e. light skinned black). It’s all relative; race depends much more on where you are than where you came from.
Oh, but I forgot to mention this exception to all that I wrote above: If the Egyptian is Muslim, especially visibly Muslim (or even just wearing a head covering for style or shade), they are neither Black, White, African nor Arab. They are TERRORISTS.
September 27, 2007 at 11:12 am
ETS
I can get with Egyptians not self-identifying as black. Being able to self-identify is very important. And I think folks have that right even if every other person disagrees with them.
But TO ME they are African … which is not the same as black. It is what it is.
And for what it’s worth, I too think Jesus was not black. A man of color? Yes. Black? No.
September 27, 2007 at 11:18 am
Eye Kid
I don’t know whether to laugh or cry at Kali’s closing sentiments. Oh wait, yes I do…
September 27, 2007 at 1:22 pm
: )
Kali was joking about the terrorists part, Eye Kid.
September 27, 2007 at 3:17 pm
Brittania
Curt,
Its nice to read that you consider ancient Egyptian civilization advanced. If you are impressed with their ancient civilization, you would surely be impressed with that of Egypt’s neighbor, Sudan. There are actually more pyramids within Sudan’s borders than there are in Egypt and the people of Sudan are undeniably black, black, black.
Furthermore, being able to build a mud hut and hunt gazelle is pretty damn advanced. I’d imagine that most of us in “advanced” countries would be dead within 3 weeks if the grocery store closed for good.
Anyway, since there are black people within Egypt’s borders and a black country to the east and to the south of Egypt, I don’t believe that anyone, without some hard scientific proof, could say that ancient Egyptians were not black.
September 27, 2007 at 6:30 pm
Who do YOU self-identify? | Young Black Professional Guide
[...] comments and conversations about how Egyptians self-identify reminded me of a conversation I had with a YBP friend of mine some time [...]
October 1, 2007 at 1:46 pm
michael
to the uneducated on the subject im talking mainly about whites and blacks from the united states,when they see the quote by hawass they say to themselves but wait egypt is in africa so they got to be black .no many north africans were white in ancient times and there is till whites who are there tpday like the berbers look at zadane from the frnch soccer team his parents are from north africa that is there origins not from europe and he is as white as they come..caucasians do not only originate from europe but from north africa and the middle east.north africa was the caucasians race original homeland not europe or the middle eastwhat hawass was saying is that ancient egypt was not a sub-sahran or west african origin ,though there were black egyptian dynasty like the 25th which was nubian and during the persian control over egypt.see the bottom line who ever wrote the article put that in the despite egypt being in africa that ancient egypt that they were not black misleading people who do not know that much about the subject
October 16, 2007 at 10:11 am
LaMonte Olden
Well, lets see, where do I start. I have studied and studied and…… concerning the race of the ancient Egyptians and all of the above is; to a degree, right. DNA studies suggests that the ancient Egyptians were closet to what we would call East African Hamites, i.e., the Galls, Ethiopian, Somolian, Gez, which are today physicaly different from West Africans or Southern Europeons. The Egyptians considered themselves “KMT” which translates to either Black land or Black nation, in other words, something black. This does not make them “Negroid” in the sense that most would define it, an example would be an individual from Ghana, or the Ivory Coast. I hope this has helped.
October 21, 2007 at 10:51 pm
michael
Lamonte, your comments are well taken,and i do understand about kemet and that is what that term means black land and refered to after the nile would over flow its banks after all these waters would recede it would leave a rich top soil which made the land look black.which the ancient egyptians owed ther lives to that soil from the nile so they named there country after it,see the debate will always rage on there are no clear cut anserw because thousands of years ago things were different an race was thought in different terms .like there is one arguement that herodotus explained the egytians to have curly hair and dark skin,but than the rebuttle for that is at the time he was there egypt had been already over run by the nubians so the population would have had alarge nubian population,or strabo who had visited ancient egypt said they looked like the northern indians and that would make them fair skinned,in other words there will always be a rebuttle for everyside in this argument whether you are a afrocentrist eurocentrist no centrist,my theory is that ancient egyptian race probaly falls somewhere inbetween the 2 arguements.
October 21, 2007 at 11:31 pm
LaMonte Olden
To Michael. I wanted your opinion on the wall paintings of Egyptian women i was looking through> What would be the easiest way of sending them to you???
October 22, 2007 at 3:33 pm
HAWASSLIE
WHAT R YOU PEOPLE TALKING ABOUT, THE CONCEPT AND THE WORD AFRICA DID NOT EVEN EXIST IN TUTS LIFETIME OR ANCIENT EGYPTS(KEMET) DYNASTIC ERA! OSIRIS WAS ALWAYS DEPICTED AS PITCH BLACK OR BLUE AND THE PYRAMIDS IN THE SUDAN PREDATE EGYPTS PYRAMIDS BY MILLENIUMS! AND FOR HEAVEN SAKE THE EGYPTIANS WROTE THAT THEY ORIGINATED IN PUNT WHICH IS SOMLILAND= IT DONT GET NO BLACKER THAN THAT! THEY WERE ETHIER BLACK OR WORE CHOCALATE BODY PAINT!HA HA! EITHER WAY THEIR CULTURE WAS SWEET!
October 30, 2007 at 4:21 am
michael
Frank Yurco Writes,The people of ancient egypt were a mixed genetic backround.their roots lay in north africa which is a part of the mediterranean region which ecompesses,southern europe ,north africa ,asia minor (the middle east),The ancient egyptians did not think of people in terms of black and white races”The whole matter of black or white egyptians is chimera,Frank Yurco continues cultural baggage from our own society that can only be artificially on the ancient egyptian society,Continuing Yurco informs us that that the ancient egyptians like there modern descendants were of varying complexions of color,from the light skinned mediterranean type(like nefertiti)to light brown of middle egypt to darker brown of upper egypt.to the darker brown of of upper egypt,this is my words just a side note to people who dont know,looking at a map of egypt upper egypt is southern egypt and lower is northern egypt where the sphinx is and the great pyramids are.okay yurco continuing to the darkest shade of brown (in other word is what we we call black ) around aswan and the fiirst cataract region,where even todaythe population shifts to nubian.
October 30, 2007 at 9:12 am
Sarai
Bronze is very close to saying black, not white.
I have always believed Yeshua to be black & that ancient Egyptians of his time were also black (not speaking of after various other cultures migrated in & out of Egypt). How can you hide a bushel of cotton on top of tar? Yes, I’m stubborn on the issue & have listened close enough to many elders so as not to change. I’m not a racist, just a realist. The majority of individuals within lighter races would dismiss the existance of blacks from biblical history altogether if possible & anything of value in any society would be considered as not black.
November 6, 2007 at 3:06 am
John
Egypt was originally black no doubt and they left visible proof just look at the giant black head with full lips on the sphinx and the wigs found in the mummies tombs but after Egypt fell to foreign invaders Persians, assiriyians ,romans etc they intermarried for hundreds of years with the foreigners and that is how they look present day most of the black physical traits were assimilated but the blood of black Africans can never be gotten rid of and will always be in their genes no matter how much mixing and test show most of the present Egyptians have black black running through their veins .many will argue that black Africans could not have produced such a great civilization since present day they live in mud huts behave uncivilized but when the egyptian empire is about to fall they destroy most of there secrets and so everything they had accomplished will be forgotten and after couple of generations the original Egyptians people fell too typical example too is that of the native American civilization which fell to European invaders and watch at them present day hardly people could believe they were the rulers of those past empires now living in huts and sleeping in hammocks hunting and fishing for a living. a person could be from the line of descendants of great lawyers but he does not automatically become a layer he or she has to go and study law to be like their past relatives.
March 21, 2008 at 9:56 am
Jasmine
Hello all, I am writing in an effort to gain perspective on the issue of race classification of egyptians living in america. I am egpytian by nationality and consider myself African American. On a medical school interview I was asked to explain why I make this consideration and politely told that I should mark Caucasion (as per the us census) so as not to deceive admissions commitees. I am confused as to why I should have to justify myself on this issue. I was wondering if anyone has encountered similar situations, and/or how you all think I should have responded.
March 21, 2008 at 4:26 pm
michael
jasmine,race is a phenotype nothing more there are egyptians who people would consider black just as there are many that would not be considered black,american racial construct is not the marker or th bar set for the rest of the world to go by america is race obsessed and as funny ways of deciding race such as one drop rules and such america is a very ignorant place,where sometimes people consider hispanic a race which it is not,you must not be black if they asked you to mark caucasian,because as i said race is a phenotype nothing more you have to look black to be black,also sadat himself was mixed race and he himself considered himself to be mixed race being his mother was a dark skinned nubian and his father was a light skin egypitan,he was well aware of the difference between nubians and egyptians.
March 21, 2008 at 5:06 pm
Kan
Black Africans built the Egyptian Empire and ruled it until it was invaded and taken over by the Muslims and white Greeks. Just about all of the tombs were raided for treasure and mommies. The whites of that time thought if they ground the remains of the powerful black leaders and consumed them, that it would cure any and all ailments. This took place all over Egypt and in other parts of Africa where mummification was practiced. So it would have been very easy for the whites who loved to rape Africa of everything, to replace the mummies with lighter colored Muslims or white Europeans. When the Caucasian scientist first started to uncover Egyptian mummies on national TV, they were extremely shock when they saw Black/Negroid features and they so stated that on TV that they were Blacks/Negroids. Now the finds are swept away and studied and etc… and when they come out with their findings, it is always a very light skinned person with the looks from the movie Star Gate!!!!
All of the great knowledge created by the Black Empires were said to have never been written down, only passed down orally until outsiders were allowed to learn from the Black empires. The Greeks were educated by the blacks and recorded what they learned and they even gave credit to there black teachers. All most all of that credit was “White Washed†or destroyed in the book Burnings/White Washing!!!! Ancient Black Africans had traveled to many different countries only later to be massacred or completely eliminated form European countries, South America, Mexico, The US, (THE ORIGINAL BLACK INDIANS), Australia, Tanzania etc… The Caucasians made the mistake of documenting the atrocities that they committed against the Black African settlers in places like Australia and a few other places, but not the whole truth in Africa. And nothing about South America, Mexico or America were they completely eliminated almost every trace of the Black African races from those countries.
Lots of US history concerning Blacks are left out of the US history books. Like how there were not only Black Native Americans who were in America before Columbus, but that Black Moors also were here and that the Black Moors from Africa were one of the first countries to formally recognize America as a country. Also that there were black owned towns, cities and more that were burned to the ground by whites. That there were Blacks who earn, or bought there freedom, (BEFORE THE LAWS CHANGES AND ONCE A SLAVE ALWAYS A SLAVE FOR EVERY AND ONE’S BABIES WERE ALSO BORN INTO SLAVERY), and that there were also blacks who were never slaves. They never tell of the many slave revolts or uprising because they want the world to think that the slaves were treated so well that there was never any need for such incidents. Also that the Spanish, blacks and other races mixed and formed lighter skinned Native Americans. And that the Moors mixed with them making them dark again. There is so much more that I could tell and so much more that is unknown to me because it was effectively WHITE WASHED and that is not only what the US believes, but also the world.
There are also many people of all races, black race included, who didn’t know that Black Africans also owned Black African slaves. Most of them were not treated as less than subhuman lower than animal. Some were given there freedom, some were given land and animals, the women were most likely married off to the owners becoming free with the marriage. Slavery is slavery, but slavery under the Caucasians was just brutally inhuman.
When will the Caucasian world stop worrying about keeping the world in ignorance through WHITE WASHING and let the truth be known?
PS
There was never any white Cleopatra being carried around by black slaves, because there was never a white Cleopatra or the light skinned people that the Caucasians are trying to portray with their fake findings!
April 2, 2008 at 10:52 pm
True Egyption
Well you guy’s I have read your’e post and I am not here to argue with you guys I have love for the world and respect all of your’e opinions. But the truth about my people is that we are black we are a black nation. Our queen Cleapatra was black. In our history osiris one of our great leaders brought us to the ethiopiens and we were one of their colonies at a point. Yes we are egyptions but we are negroid yes we are and im proud of it I will not claim any other race but my own which is black black black. Hell no we are not white and the fact that the media trys to tell people that is a disgrace. They try to change our sculptures and make them in the form of white features which is not authentic. But thats all i wanted to say. Yea the kkk would surley kill us too along with our african neighbors so thats all that matters. We are niggers god look at us we look the damn same. Stop calling us arabs stop calling us white please!!!!!!
April 17, 2008 at 1:13 pm
spritand pizza
it doesnt have to do with greatness, where just trying to find the truth. you idoit
July 10, 2008 at 10:02 pm
Njoroge Gitonga
Dear Everybody,
What Hawass and other Eurocentrists don’t mention is that nobody in Africa considers the current Arab inhabitants of North Africa as being indigenous to Africa. The Arabs in North Africa are foreigners. The Arab invasion of North Africa took place 1,600 years ago after the collapse of the Roman Empire. To therefore claim that the civilisations of North Eastern Africa are Caucasian is therefore poposterous
August 19, 2008 at 3:56 am
Cleo
Cleopatra was Greek. And so were the Ptolemys.
September 23, 2008 at 8:07 pm
Cleo
Cleopatra was of Greek hertitage, and so were all the Ptolemys.
September 23, 2008 at 8:09 pm
mona
unless you're joking, that last paragraph just NEGATED your impressive and logical first paragraph.
October 19, 2008 at 10:58 am
Clyde
Egypt is 65% Arab Semitic White(Hamitic THEORY outdated by DNA testing-haploid groups)., 30% Black(mostly Nubian/people of Kemet,some Nilotics),Black/ArabMoors & Berbers have 8-15% Black ancestry, the remainder Arab Semitic White. admixture,the remainder other ethnicities.Not all Africans are Black, The INDIGENOUS peoples of Maghreb (in North Africa)are classified as Aboriginal Caucasoids(resembling/appearing White/ Caucasian).Blacks were not necessarily the first humans.Two forms of Homo sapiens lived in Africa about the same time-Homo sapiens Idaltu(had N*egroid features) resembling modern Blacks and Homo sapiens Cro Magnon(hadCaucasoid features) resembling modern Caucasians.On an anthropological basis, King Tut appears to have mixed heritage-Black/Nubian features-flat, broad,,but small nose(nasal index between Black/White, high, pronounced cheek bones, almond eyes, pronounced external occipital protuberance, scoop shovel teeth,Arab Semitic White features-thin lips,lack of prognathism(a Black feature), high forehead(Caucasian feature)-skin color has been depicted as light brown to Black-most likely was golden brown like President elect Obama.The base stock of the Egyptians is Arab Semitic White with admixture of Nubian/Nilotic Blacks as were the Ancient Egyptians.The Nubians were Pharoahs from 800-700 B.C.. Many different mummies demonstrate either Caucasian features or Black features. Some demonstrate BOTH. Egypt was a crossing point for many cultures, so definitely many are represented in the Egytian peoples, but the base stock is Arab.
November 25, 2008 at 12:42 am
Finife Force
The Black Pharohs
An ignored chapter of history tells of a time when kings from deep in Africa conquered ancient Egypt.
In the year 730 B.C., a man by the name of Piye decided the only way to save Egypt from itself was to invade it. Things would get bloody before the salvation came.
“Harness the best steeds of your stable,†he ordered his commanders. The magnificent civilization that had built the great pyramids had lost its way, torn apart by petty warlords. For two decades Piye had ruled over his own kingdom in Nubia, a swath of Africa located mostly in present-day Sudan. But he considered himself the true ruler of Egypt as well, the rightful heir to the spiritual traditions practiced by pharaohs such as Ramses II and Thutmose III. Since Piye had probably never actually visited Lower Egypt, some did not take his boast seriously. Now Piye would witness the subjugation of decadent Egypt firsthandâ€â€Ã¢â‚¬Å“I shall let Lower Egypt taste the taste of my fingers,†he would later write.
North on the Nile River his soldiers sailed. At Thebes, the capital of Upper Egypt, they disembarked. Believing there was a proper way to wage holy wars, Piye instructed his soldiers to purify themselves before combat by bathing in the Nile, dressing themselves in fine linen, and sprinkling their bodies with water from the temple at Karnak, a site holy to the ram-headed sun god Amun, whom Piye identified as his own personal deity. Piye himself feasted and offered sacrifices to Amun. Thus sanctified, the commander and his men commenced to do battle with every army in their path…….
Source; http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2008/02/black...
December 2, 2008 at 6:26 pm
se7enthgoddess
Hey idiot, Cleopatra was pure Macedonian Greek, directly descended from Ptolemy I, a general of Alexander the Great. You know, that guy whom you probably know only as Colin Farrell, who conquered the vast majority of the known world including Egypt. When he died his empire was split between his generals and Ptolemy managed to snag Egypt for himself where he established a royal dynasty that eventually ended under Cleopatra. The Ptolemaic dynasty was so concerned with the preservation of their royal MACEDONIAN blood that it became standard practice within the family for brothers and sisters to wed – Cleopatra herself was married two of her own brothers. In addition, all coins which bear Cleopatra's likeness portray her with a formidably prominent and hooked eagle-nose. So, please, before you consider again assaulting us with your atrocious grammar, get your facts straight and don't display your racist ignorance in such a humiliating way – it's sad, it really is.
January 4, 2009 at 10:27 pm
not black
Egyptians arent black
February 6, 2009 at 5:32 pm