A YBP Facebook Debate: Barack vs. Hillary pt. 2
Part 1 can be found here.
Fredric: Interesting points.
First, I’ll go ahead and relent that your particular political knowledge of ‘what did he vote for, what did he not vote for’, especially in Illinois, is a lot more tight than mine. While I understand the questions around ‘why would he take a neutral ground on an important issue’, I guess my default response is to say ‘what were the circumstances?’
To simply label a vote on an issue as a barometer for one’s moral compass or mindset, I think, is completely unfair. I know, from personal experience, that things tend to be more than they appear. Let’s take the issue you brought up about ‘not voting for the war, but voting to fund the war’. Politics has always been a ‘if you scratch my back, I will scratch yours’. All politicians play the game that if they think a bill or issue that is really popular will go through the voting parties, they’ll try and tack on little bits and pieces here and there to make sure their personal interests are met. What was vexing about the war funding bill is the question of ‘well, I didnt vote for the war, but since we are in it, does that mean that I shouldnt vote for the kids that are over there to have the equipment they need to protect themselves?’ One critic may say, ‘well Barack, you didnt hold true to your principles. If you were so against it, why would you vote to fund it?’ To me, I think him being able to weigh each issues separately and not with the blindfolds of ‘well, Im sticking to my guns and I will vote down anything related to the war’ tells me that he has a better sense of what is going on and has an astute vision on this controversial issue.
These qualities are something that uniquely define leaders. It is very easy for one to be part of the ‘yay’ or ‘nay’ crowd, but to moderate the discussion, to blaze a path to the solution so that parties at least come to the table with something that works AND something that satisfies sometimes takes a neutral mindset every now and then.
Like I said, the specifics of his voting record in Illinois, I mean….I dont have an answer for. I do know that Illinois politics is a rough game, and that was obvious from the stupid-ass crap they were pulling with funding for the CTA this past year! I mean, it would seem a no-brainer to give more funds, but cats were stagnating on the issue because they kept trying to add their little piece into the bill.
As for the whole ‘well, when he gets elected, then all the white hoodies will come out and trap that negro’, I mean….what do you want me to say to that? I’ve always been of the mindset that true virtues trump conniving ways. He is a smart guy and I don’t underestimate that he will take each challenge one step at a time while putting the people around him to make sure he’s ok. Even more so, he has Michelle. A good friend once told me that 95% of success is marrying the right person. It may seem ‘fluffy’ to discount his approach and her thoughts on how they view themselves and the importance of their family, but it speaks volumes about their character. Since no one can predict tomorrow, my gut tells me to support someone who I believe can make the best decision when tomorrow comes.
Let’s put it this way….the CEO of a company is never the smartest person, the most frugal, the most endearing, or the most business savvy. The CEO, especially the successful ones, are the ones who are the most visionary. While it can be said that he may not know the political games as well as <insert 20+ year senator here> or know THE answer to end all debts, poverty, healthcare, war, and faults in education, he does have the capacity to envision a solution with the pieces he will be given.
As for his specific platform, if you need a specific link:
http://www.barackobama.com
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTIO
Tahani: In regards to the Iraq war, the voting against funding would be a blatant show of distrust in the policies and adamantly sticking to your guns. Regardless of which way Barack voted, Bush would get his funding by flexing some executive muscle that most presidents haven’t in many generations of leadership. A lot of citizens didn’t know that regardless of how the senate, etc. votes, the President can veto whatever he wants which Bush has recently. Had Barack REALLY been in disagreement with the war and its policies, he would have used his vote to take a firm stand. He chose not to, and continues to lie to us time and time again.
I love Michelle Obama in that she’s a real black woman like myself. She’s dark and intelligent, and her nationality and smarts aren’t a question in peoples’ minds. I respect and admire their union, but the reality of the situation is that they both need to start planning. There are specifics related to this election that Barack can’t answer in debates or interviews. He falls back on that “I didn’t vote for the war, and Bill’s blemished presidency” excuse too often for me. I can’t stand it because I feel bad just voting on a “hope that he’ll get it together and not mess up”. As more affluent young African-American’s, we are all kinda voting based on feelings and and what we hope will happen. We know better than to take things for its surface value. We are used to research and thinking! We must do more than just feel that being ambitious and speaking like Dr. King is good enough to become President! Why don’t we ask the tough question’s? Why aren’t we more concerned about our credit rating or our futures? Maybe isn’t good enough for me, and I hope (there’s his favorite word again) that once he gets into the oval office, he’ll think and plan like he should be doing now. Hillary is thinking now. Barack might get it together, later… that scares me a lil’ bit.
I’ll check out those sites, but if you had some links of him answereing specific question’s, that would be dope. Anyone can type some ish up on his site, and more often than not, its not Barack, since he’s so busy. I can’t find any interviews, etc. where he answers with more than a cliché slogan, and thats what i’m searching for.
Now, I wouldn’t judge Barack on his voting being directly tied to his moral composition if he didn’t constantly put that out there. “You know my intentions are genuine by my voting record. I urge all the doubters that question my experience to look at my track record.” Well, when I did just that, I saw that a lot of the things he says are lies. I can attach this to his inexperience, but Hillary knows the game. She votes firmly and sticks to what she believes in. You can’t question certain things because her intentions are air tight, which attracts me, but similarly makes me a bit cautious of what’s going on underneath the tight front.
Now, about blazing a neutral path…Vote against mean laws and rewrite it in a way that makes the law more appropriate. Vote for laws that will protect us. Regarding his votes on these laws, he said “I didn’t agree with a legal provision.” Hillary asked him ‘well why didn’t you vote it down and join a committee to rewrite it?’ He replied, “there are many things that go into voting in Il. I can’t waste time explaining every single vote, there is another candidate here. We should include him in this debate also.” COPPED OUT. Then, Edwards asserted the same question and to it Barack replied, “you keep picking out certain things to attack me on and I won’t argue over these small votes in the IL senate.” You can see these complete debates on youtube.com. Just search for Jan 22, 2008 debates. If you’re this pillar of moral blah blah, don’t befriend and protect slum lords, don’t ignore laws that will protect victims, credit reports, etc. Everything I read about Barack is kinda see-through. It’s nothing that I couldn’t say. I want him to have some deep thoughts that I didn’t think of. I also want him to know what he believes enough to say it in a debate and not go back to the whole catchphrase shuck and jive monkey shows he’s too comfortable performing in.
Thoughts readers?
Updated: Part 3.
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Comment by Credo on 17 February 2008:
Tahani and Fredic thanks for the insight on Obama. I recently attended an Obama rally, and I was somewhat taken aback by the feel good campaign.
I was geeked by the response of the people, but I wanted more spontaneous interaction with the audience from Obama on serious issues.
I watched him supposely randomly select from the audience, not one person was over 35 or African-American !
I had to check myself..and remember that the rally was about getting out the vote and I was not a resident of the area.
I have been an Obama supporter from the time the rumor that he would run in 2007. I confess, I have read little of his position papers.
I brought into him being a constitutional scholar and his grassroot campaign strategy. I believed that with his background the rest will fall into place. I like the fact that he worked in the core of the city of Chicago, I like the fact that he has street knowledge. I like the fact that he is family oriented. I like the fact that Michelle is her own person and will provide some additional depth to Obama presidency. I like the fact that he is a young African-American male that is playing the political game beyond just voting.
Tahani, we do want Obama to be more than an affirmative action President voted in by the people. And I believe he may not be the best debater with the oldheads, but he is able to hold his own. And with time, Obama will do better.
Comment by Chuck on 19 February 2008:
Where’s the Substance?
By Scott Galindez
t r u t h o u t | Perspective
Monday 18 February 2008
Madison, Wisconsin - Many pundits and the Clinton campaign keep asking where the substance is to Obama’s campaign. There’s a simple answer: in his plans.
It’s true that his stump speeches are full of soaring oratory and do not satisfy policy wonks, but do a simple search of his web site and you will find substance. He also regularly gives policy speeches packed with specifics.
For example, on Saturday in Wisconsin, Senator Obama laid out his plan for revitalizing the Community College System.
Obama proposes to make tuition at a community college completely free for most Americans by creating a new “American Opportunity Tax Credit.” He explained, “This fully refundable credit will ensure that the first $4,000 of a college education is free. The credit will be available to families at the time of enrollment by using the prior year’s tax data to deliver the credit at the time the tuition is due. Recipients of this credit will be required to conduct 100 hours of public service a year, either during the school year or over the summer months.”
The senator also proposed creating a so-called “Community College Partnership” that would assess the role of community colleges and help to tailor their services to the needs of students and industry.
Senator Obama also laid out his plan for the economy in a speech to workers at a General Motors assembly plant in Janesville, Wisconsin, on Wednesday.
In that speech, Obama said he would offer direct relief to victims of the mortgage crisis, and would also offer a tax credit to low- and middle-income taxpayers that will help them meet their mortgage obligations.
His job creation program focuses on infrastructure and “green energy jobs.” He proposes spending $210 billion over ten years to create jobs in these sectors and retrain workers to transition to these opportunities.
Another proposal affecting workers would be in the area of retirement accounts. He would mandate employers to place a small percentage of salaries into a retirement savings account. Under his plan, the federal government would match the funds set aside.
For working parents who split time between earning a living and caring for their kids, Obama proposes expanding the child-care tax credit for people earning less than $50,000 a year, and he proposes doubling spending on quality after-school programs. He also would expand the “Family Medical Leave Act” to include more businesses and millions more workers, and would require every employer to provide seven paid days of medical leave a year.
On health care, the major difference between Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton are mandates. Both would set up a similar system that individuals could buy into. Clinton would mandate that everyone must buy in. Obama would only require that children be covered; he cited the situation in Massachusetts,where some people are being fined for not buying into a plan that they think they can’t afford. Obama says he is committed to universal health care, but doesn’t want to put an “unfair burden on individuals while we work to get there.”
On Iraq, Obama has pledged to getting all US combat troops out in 16 months. Clinton will not set a date. Neither candidate would remove all troops; both believe a small force will be necessary to protect the embassy, and to protect Iraqis who have assisted our soldiers. Many antiwar activists oppose both Clinton’s and Obama’s plans, saying they don’t go far enough, fast enough.
This article is not intended to be an endorsement of Obama on the issues. The real differences between Senator Clinton and Senator Obama are very small. Senator Clinton also would invest in “Green Jobs;” she has a national service plan, and would provide similar tax credits. The corporate media are doing the country a disservice by echoing unfair charges that Obama’s campaign is all about speeches and has no substance.
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/021808Z.shtml
Comment by Fredric on 19 February 2008:
Thanks Chuck, that’s some good info.
Comment by Tahani on 20 February 2008:
Chuck, I urge you to delve deeper into your research. Barack was deathly afraid to mention taxes as recently at two weeks ago. Hilary has continuously urged that a more equal tax assessment in conjuntion with a revitalized EIC would fund necessary reforms in healthcare etc.
If Bawhack had all of the solid plans why can’t he speak about them when called upon? In a debate or interview, he’s notorious for blanket answers or simply NOT answering. I am all for Barack being president, but I need something that Hilary didn’t say before him, and i need and answer that goes deeper than a catch phrase. The republicans will rip him to shreds and he’s making it all to easy. Instead of not answering Rezco ?’s he needs to be preparing for them. Instead of borrowing lines for speeches, He should have a speech team that’s so air tight there’s no room for desperate people to find errors. Right now all he has going for himself is the whole likeability speech thing, lets not shoot ourselves in the foot here! lol
Since early January he’s been speaking like Dr. King. PHONY as Hilary’s occassional country accent! I just wonder when he’ll follow up the cute speechs with ACTION! you can say anything, but doing is the difference in Dr. King’s policies and his. Michelle disgusted me by saying that this is the first time her country’s been hungry for change. UH AHEM you’re my parents age, you were definitely alive and old enough to remember Dr. Kings revolution, so sit your happyass down and acknowledge who ACTED in a way that prepared the WORLD for what your husband is talking about doing.
Saying “I will reform healthcare and bring our troops home” is not synonymous with “I will train and hire new people to deal with international relations in Iraq, with this new team we will clearly be able to go in with a better strategy, and work on a deadline. Our country has not utilized all of its taxes options that would not dramatically restruction our personal financial sitations. I have expolored these options further and now have viable plans to utilize taxes for mandatory reforms ….” Guess which candidate said which statement? We are settling for the most basic answers and its going to get ugly if Barack doesn’t end this Step’n’ fetchit act, and get down to business, we’re all doomed. We can’t just leave Iraq because of how laws are written. Now If I know that at 24 sitting in my apt in Bronzeville, why doesn’t Barack? What is he planning to do to change the laws, and protect people? Speaking about an impossible timeline isn’t a good plan guys. Sorry! GET IT TOGETHER BARACK OR GO HOME!
Comment by Tahani on 20 February 2008:
Sorry for the typos my cursor jumps around on its own, dang Vista, if anyone knows how to fix this LET ME KNOW!
I just “hope” that Barack decides to think deeper and surround himself with a better team. That whole speech stealing thing was desperate on Hilary’s side and out of desperation people will do ANYTHING… Has anyone thought that that may have been an act of sabotauge? [sp?] that was a theory my friend threw out and he’s a huge Baracker….. its one thing to get popular, in another to lead the class, i hope he doesn’t turn out to be up like the prom queen that got knocked up!
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